Possibly the best break-up email I’ve ever seen

This email was forwarded to me by my darling friend… she’s the best. This guy, however, isn’t:

—— Forwarded Message
From:
Date:
Sun, 4 Dec 2011 14:19:39 -0500
To:
Subject:
Hi Lauren

Hi Lauren,

I’m disappointed in you. I’m disappointed that I haven’t gotten a response to my voicemail and text messages.

FYI, I suggest that you keep in mind that emails sound more impersonal, harsher, and are easier to misinterpret than in-person or phone communication. After all, people can’t see someone’s body language or tone of voice in an email. I’m not trying to be harsh, patronizing, or insulting in this email. I’m honest and direct by nature, and I’m going to be that way in this email. By the way, I did a google search, so that’s how I came across your email.

I assume that you no longer want to go out with me. (If you do want to go out with me, then you should let me know.) I suggest that you make a sincere apology to me for giving me mixed signals. I feel led on by you.

Things that happened during our date include, but are not limited to, the following:

-You played with your hair a lot. A woman playing with her hair is a common sign of flirtation. You can even do a google search on it. When a woman plays with her hair, she is preening. I’ve never had a date where a woman played with her hair as much as you did. In addition, it didn’t look like you were playing with your hair out of nervousness.

-We had lots of eye contact during our date. On a per-minute basis, I’ve never had as much eye contact during a date as I did with you.

-You said, “It was nice to meet you.” at the end of our date. A woman could say this statement as a way to show that she isn’t interested in seeing a man again or she could mean what she said–that it was nice to meet you. The statement, by itself, is inconclusive.

-We had a nice conversation over dinner. I don’t think I’m being delusional in saying this statement.

In my opinion, leading someone on (i.e., giving mixed signals) is impolite and immature. It’s bad to do that.

Normally, I would not be asking for information if a woman and I don’t go out again after a first date. However, in our case, I’m curious because I think our date went well and that there is a lot of potential for a serious relationship. Of course, it’s difficult to predict what would happen, but I think there is a lot of potential for a serious relationship developing between us one day (or least there was before your non-response to my voicemail and text messages).

I think we should go out on a second date. In my opinion, our first date was good enough to lead to a second date.

Why am I writing you? Well, hopefully, we will go out again. Even if we don’t, I gain utility from expressing my thoughts to you. In addition, even if you don’t want to go out again, I would like to get feedback as to why you wouldn’t want to go again. Normally, I wouldn’t ask a woman for this type of feedback after a first date, but this is an exception given I think we have a lot of potential.

If you don’t want to go again, then apparently you didn’t think our first date was good enough to lead to a second date. Dating or a relationship is not a Hollywood movie. It’s good to keep that in mind.
In general, I thought the date went well and was expecting that we would go out on a second date.

If you’re not interested in going out again, then I would have preferred if you hadn’t given those mixed signals. I feel led on.
We have a number of things in common. I’ll name a few things: First, we’ve both very intelligent. Second, we both like classical music so much that we go to classical music performances by ourselves. In fact, the number one interest that I would want to have in common with a woman with whom I’m in a relationship is a liking of classical music. I wouldn’t be seriously involved with a woman if she didn’t like classical music. You said that you’re planning to go the NY Philharmonic more often in the future. As I said, I go to the NY Philharmonic often. You’re very busy. It would be very convenient for you to date me because we have the same interests. We already go to classical music performances by ourselves. If we go to classical music performances together, it wouldn’t take any significant additional time on your part. According to the internet, you’re 33 or 32, so, at least from my point of view, we’re a good match in terms of age. I could name more things that we have in common, but I’ll stop here. I don’t understand why you apparently don’t want to go out with me again. We have numerous things in common. I assume that you find me physically attractive. If you didn’t find me physically attractive, then it would have been irrational for you to go out with me in the first place. After all, our first date was not a blind date. You already knew what I looked like before our date.
Perhaps, you’re unimpressed that I manage my family’s investments and my own investments. Perhaps, you don’t think I have a “real” job. Well, I’ve done very well as an investment manager. I’ve made my parents several millions of dollars. That’s real money. That’s not monopoly money. In my opinion, if I make real money, it’s a real job. Donald Trump’s children work for his company. Do they have “real” jobs?  I think so. George Soros’s sons help manage their family investments. Do they have “real” jobs? I think so.

In addition, I’m both a right-brain and left-brain man, given that I’m both an investment manager and a philosopher/writer. That’s a unique characteristic; most people aren’t like that. I’ve never been as disappointed and sad about having difficulty about getting a second date as I am with you. I’ve gone out with a lot of women in my life. (FYI, I’m not a serial dater. Sometimes, I’ve only gone out with a woman for one date.) People don’t grow on trees. I hope you appreciate the potential we have.


Am I sensitive person? Sure, I am. I think it’s better to be sensitive than to be insensitive. There are too many impolite, insensitive people in the world.

I suggest that we continue to go out and see what happens. Needless to say, I find you less appealing now (given that you haven’t returned my messages) than I did at our first date. However, I would be willing to go out with you again. I’m open minded and flexible and am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I wish you would give me the benefit of the doubt too. If you don’t want to go out again, in my opinion, you would be making a big mistake, perhaps one of the biggest mistakes in your life.  If you don’t want to go out again, then you should have called to tell me so. Even sending a text message would have been better than nothing. In my opinion, not responding to my messages is impolite, immature, passive aggressive, and cowardly. I spent time, effort, and money meeting you for dinner. Getting back to me in response to my messages would have been a reasonable thing for you to do. In addition, you arrived about 30 minutes late for our date. I’m sure you wouldn’t like it if a man showed up thirty minutes late for a first date with you.

If you’re concerned that you will hurt my feelings by providing specific information about why you don’t want to go with me again, well, my feeling are already hurt. I’m sad and disappointed about this situation. If you give information, at least I can understand the situation better. I might even learn something that is beneficial.

If you don’t want to go out again, that I request that you call me and make a sincere apology for leading me on (i.e., giving me mixed signals). In my opinion, you shouldn’t act that way toward a man and then not go out with him again. It’s bad to play with your hair so much and make so much eye contact if you’re not interested in going out with me again.  I have tried to write this email well, but it’s not perfect. Again, I’m not trying to be harsh, insulting, patronizing, etc. I’m disappointed, sad, etc. I would like to talk to you on the phone. I hope you will call me back at xxx-xxx-xxxx (if it’s inconvenient for you to talk on the phone when you read this email, you can let me know via email that you are willing to talk on the phone and I’ll call you). If you get my voicemail, you can a leave a message and I can call you back. Even if you don’t want to go out again, I would appreciate it if you give me the courtesy of calling me and talking to me. Yes, you might say things that hurt me, but my feelings are already hurt. Sending me an email response (instead of talking on the phone) would better than no response at all, but I think it would be better to talk on the phone. Email communication has too much potential for misinterpretation, etc.

Best,
Mike

Bryce Gruber is a Manhattanite mom who can be found jet-setting off to every corner of the globe. She loves exotic places, planes with WiFi, summer clothes, & Sucre brown butter truffles. Bryce's aim is to do to luxury what Elton John did to being gay. Follow her on twitter @brycegruber

  • THIS IS AMAZING!!!

  • and totally nuts.

  • Bryce

    haha… yes, yes, yes.

  • onegreatsmile

    This guy is in the wrong career. He should be an engineer. He’s TOTALLY got the personality for it. Poor girl~~that’s what she gets for trying to be nice. He scares me!!!!!!!!!!!! Even if he has a point, it’s WAY too much for an EMAIL!!!

  • bobat

    I registered on this site solely to respond to this post. As a woman who also does online dating, I have been in this man’s shoes countless times, and let me tell you, it is incredibly devastating. I go on a date, the man seems to like me, even compliments me, refuses to let me pay for dinner, and may even go so far as to say I can get the next one. Often times he even tries to prolong the date. Then later in the week I call or text and nothing…if i bug him enough to finally get an answer out of him he says “not enough chemistry.” WTF.
    As self entitled as this man sounds in his email he has a point. Dating is not like in the movies and its depressing that so many people hold out for perfection. Not to mention, ignoring someone is incredibly immature and cowardly and causes much more pain than telling someone straight out “You are too ugly, stupid, boring, etc.” Quite frankly I understand not finding someone appealing enough to date, but to completely cut them out of your life because of it is incredibly heartless and mindboggling to me. If I am not interested in a guy I act disinterested and bored during the date. If he still wants to talk to me, I do, AS A FRIEND. Unless someone is a horrendous person i don’t understand why someone wouldn’t even want to give them a chance to be a friend. To ignore someone for not being perfect is disgustingly inhumane. At the very least have the courage to tell them what it was that you didn’t like about them so they don’t have to kill themselves wondering what went wrong.
    I understand that your friend is close to you, but from her actions she seems like a terrible person. I am 100 percent sure that if your friend was in this guys shoes you would be telling her what a jerk this guy is for not returning her calls. Yet when she does it to someone else it’s “okay”? Give me a break! I seriously hope that this happens to your friend so she can experience how painful it is to go on a date with someone who seems to like you and then get ignored. This is not like ignoring someone you have never met who sent you an email, she clearly liked his photos otherwise she wouldn’t have met him. If he didn’t look like his photos or acted like a jerk he has the right to know this! Even if you think it is being “mean” it is a lot nicer than flat out ignoring someone! Once you meet someone you should at the very least treat them like a human being, and human beings deserve to know why you are not taking their calls.

  • LarryS

    What a schmuck! When I go out on a first date with a woman and I receive a “you’re a nice guy, but” email or text I take it at face value and don’t try to negotiate from a position of weakness – the woman has made up her mind and I think that I would sound desperate if I tried to change her mind. If I honestly feel that we could be pleutonic friends I suggest it and sometimes that happens. But to try to force someone to like you when they’ve already made up their mind sounds desperate. Chemistry between two people is emotional, and while something may look right on paper that doesn’t translate into feelings.

  • ferferla

    hahahahahhaaahhahah that’s awesome! And i’d be afraid of this guy.

  • fellinilover

    Who is this dude Patrick Bateman(American Psycho)! He sounds like a total wackadoo. It all made sense when he stated he was an investment banker. Obviously, he wanted a return on his investment(Lauren) but didn’t get one. Good thing he probably has money because I don’t see this dude getting laid anytime by someone unless it involves a monetary transaction.

  • sandie

    the only thing the other commenter (bobat) and I have in common is that I created a login specifically to respond to her post. Bryce, you should set her up with the guy in the email. They’re both psycho and dellusional.

    Clearly if someone doesn’t answer your calls, they’re not into you. When you choose to take it a step further and call, text, and email saying ridiculous/borderline scary and stalkerish things, you look even more undesireable.

    To generalize the personality of her friend is even more weird. Just because she didn’t answer the calls of this guy, who clearly is derranged, she is not a terrible person. They went on one date and she is in no way bound to him or his feelings. Yes, it is the polite thing to do, but it is also her choice to never talk to him again if he creeped her out enough.

    Perhaps a lesson to be learned is not to come on to strong. (You did say you’ve been in this mans shoes countless times). Nobody likes a needy creeper!

  • blackrose

    wow! There is so much with this email that i do agree with. First if you are doing online dating and you see a picture that you like and you decide to meet him, you shouldn’t be thirty minutes late for the mere fact that if you had no interest to me him in the first place you wouldn’t have agreed to meet in. And as a woman that will keep it truthful yes woman play with their hair why because we are flirting for 90 percent of it and for the remaining 10 percent you can tell that we are nervous.. and or we do it out of habit. And to let a man pay for your dinner without any hesitation just two things… option 1 you are a gold digging bitch or option 2 you are thinking about well if you pay for dinner now.. the next time i will make you dinner or take you someone to pay it back. And to keep constant eye contact with someone is making an emotional bond with them.. If he wasn’t want you were looking for or you lost interest you are going to natural break eye contact for long periods of time. And then to talk about common likes in detail shows you are interested because you are going deeper on level with your likes.. If you didn’t have a serious enough interest in him.. you would have kept vague to show you don’t want him to know personal things about you. To show this man all of this and then to not even respond to him once is rude as hell. The least any human being can do is talk hell even text but nothing that’s torture . He deserved to at least get answer even if it was just i’m sorry i don’t want to see you again. At least then she would be civil and at least give mutual respect as a human being. i’m sorry for the length of this reply but i do feel like hes logic behind this email is warranted and valid and i believe that the email itself was necessary.

  • Whatever chances he had for a 2nd date, were killed after he sent this email.

    And if that’s the thought process he goes through after every first date, he’s going to end up being single the rest of his life!

  • VTbmbshll

    If this is his email, holey moley people, can you imagine him in person? He musta been handsome and throwing down serious cash for her to smile through this personality, cause he definetly doesn’t have game.

  • ambilextrous

    bobat and blackrose: you are absolutely delusional. This girl was obviously being polite on the date, but in her mind it didn’t go well. Being polite includes making eye contact. Playing with hair can mean you’re bored. It’s chivalrous for the man to pay, and in my experience this is expected on the east coast. In any case, if you read into the potentials and possibles and ignore the overwhelming weight of the evidence that the person is not into you, it’s your problem–with lack of emotional intelligence and/or lack of socialization.

    I do the same thing as this girl–no response–both to give a subtle signal of rejection rather than outright cruel rejection, and to avoid inflaming a potentially crazy person. If you engage them, they will stalk; so to me the better risk/reward decision is to not respond at all. For those of you that can’t catch subtle social cues, get some self help books instead of whining that you are constantly “led on.” The only thing consistent in your being “led on” time and again is you.

  • Cubey

    I’ve been on both ends of the spectrum: Totally dissed, after 2 dates, when I thought we both liked each other and the guy never called me back. Then getting badgered by a guy after the 1st date when I told him it wouldn’t work out because he’s too negative. And he still insisted that he had an off day on our date, I should reconsider because he had bought me brunch, after all, and should give him a 2nd chance. I think this Mike guy has deep-rooted insecurity issues and needs to grow a thicker skin.

  • Majick

    Dear God, I couldn’t even finish the email. LOL Talk about wack-a-doo!
    I have not been on the dating scene since the ’80s but let me tell you, not much has changed. LOL You will always get those people who have a totally different reality in their head.

  • I too register just to respond to Bobat and Blackrose. He GOOGLED her to get her email. That is basically stalking. She did not give it to him willingly. So if you agree, then that says everything about why you are not getting 2nd dates. I mean, I am astonished that anyone is siding with this guy! He’s nuts. If someone doesn’t get back to you, let it go. You don’t need a reason, its just not working out. Forcing further correspondence will not help, and will just make them want to see you even less. Getting blown off after a date happens to all of us, and is part of dating. Move on to next one, and try to relax a little! I really hope this helps!

  • teensiesama

    By Golly!!! I can’t even finish the email!! Cripes! Was he trying to write a frickin novel???!!!
    I agree that someone not getting back to you is impolite and perhaps immature. However, a person Google-ing to get someone’s Email address so he can send that email to her??? Seriously??? He really thinks that THAT is going to get him a second date with her?? I think what he will get from her isn’t going to be a second date. It will be a RESTRAINING ORDER. OH-EM-GEE. Seriously. Get on with your life. Find another chic. Just because you think the date was great and there was chemistry doesn’t mean she feels the same way!! Sometimes people behave a certain way during dates because they are trying to be polite in person.
    Here’s a hint and a clue for all you crazy guys like the fellow in this email. If she’s ignoring your texts, and voicemail — SHE DOESN’T DIG YOU!! Leave her the hell alone!
    That’s just my two-cents. Hey, what do I know. I’m a married chic with kids 😛

  • WilliAMnot

    ambidextrous – I signed on because of you! First of all I do think this guy is totally clueless, and what he wrote is seriously mind boggling, but I really think that all you girls out there who can’t simply tell a guy that you’re not interested in him, are simply too weak and a bit pathetic in not doing so. There is something called “common courtesy” and it’s something that a lot of women these days have very little of. Most of you end up old and unattractive anyways, and tend to just look for money douches like this guy in the end. It happens all too often. Bottom line, if you are willing to go on a date with someone, and he pays and all that crap, then you DO at least owe him an answer to his phone call or at least an email – just one time. That is what they used to call manners. You should try it next time instead of being so self centered and insensitive to fellow human beings.

  • tammie2412

    I agree with @bobat & @blackrose on this one. If she didn’t like the guy, why did she let him pay for dinner?? @ambilextrous says she was just being polite, come on! How polite is someone who: A) is 30 minutes late for a 1st date (or any date for that matter) & B) can’t be bothered to return someone’s texts or phone calls. Googling someone for their email address in this day & age is no different than looking up someone’s address & phone number in the phone book was 20 years ago. Not even close to “stalking”. The guy needed closure. Ok, he was a bitcheesy & weird about it. But, if she wouldn’t have been an immature bitch about the situation to begin with, he probably would have never sent any email. She should’ve answered his calls or texts & been polite/friendly but clear & honest. Someone said she didn’t owe him anything. But as decent human beings, (especially if we begin an online friendship) if we go out with people – we do owe them common decency & a returned phone call or text saying yes, I’m interested or no, I’m not into anything romantically, but I’d love to be friends, or there’s just no chemistry/nothing in common, thank you for your time, dinner, etc but this isn’t going to work out. How long can that phone conversation or text take? 5 – 10 minutes tops. If you aren’t willing to take that much time out to set someone’s mind at ease or help them a bit after a date, than you should really rethink what’s important in life & especially the way you treat others!

  • Bryce

    If you loved this one, check out his OTHER letter:
    http://www.theluxuryspot.com/2011/12/08/theres-more-to-the-break-up-email-guy/

  • WilliAMnot

    tammie2412, I wish more women thought like you. I strongly agree in what you wrote, and wrote it a lot better than I did. Cheers to you!

  • tammie2412

    @WilliAMnot – Thank you! I think you made some great points!! I’m sorry I was redundant. I’m ashamed to say I didn’t read yours before I posted, I was just so frustrated by the time I got down to @ambilextrous that I had to start typing!! LOL I’m glad there are others out there who still believe in being nice/decent to others. Why hurt someone’s feelings when it’s not necessary? Happy Holidays!! 🙂

  • Ok mike supporters–has it occurred to any of you that he may have exhibited a number of these behaviors on the date as well? I highly doubt someone with this strong of a personality could mask that on a date. His personality is clearly very aggressive and one can imagine he would have insisted on paying for dinner. Regardless, no one owes an overly aggressive and clearly delusional person any reply. It would clearly only encourage the bizzare behavior seen above.

    This is not a case of being cruel, more of a case of self preservation.

  • LarryS

    I’ve unfortunately been out on a number of dates where things seem to go well but the other person decided that they don’t want to see me again. Sometimes it’s very frustrating not having closure. Regardless, this situation with Mike goes far beyond just asking for a second chance. It smacks of desperation – the message refers to an email and text messages – plural – which means he contacted Lauren at least three times. That’s two too many, and I hope that Lauren reports this stalker-ish behavior to the dating site where they met (if that was the case) so they are aware that they have a problem on their hands. Mike obviously has bigger issues than his inability to connect with someone…

  • throwaway

    We can all see Mike has serious issues. He doesn’t know what his problem is, which is why he’s asking. Now that a giant swath of the Internet has had a chance to see his message (and mock him mercilessly), perhaps we can give him an answer.

    Mike’s problem is autism, plain as day. This style is VERY distinctive. Mike can’t take hints – they’re in a foreign language to him. That chip on his shoulder is well-earned from a lifetime of inscrutable, unfair social encounters. He doesn’t know how to ask for help, but this is as close as it gets. I could give a much more detailed supporting argument, but really, I don’t need to be exactly right. The first step is the same – get a proper diagnosis. Mike needs to know that he’s asking for specialized help, and he needs to be directed to a specialist who can help him. The people around him need the same thing; it will make him less of a pain to deal with.

    Completely avoiding this guy will drag out the problem. He’ll respond best to a blunt, emotionally neutral, almost robotic reply. It could be something like this:

    “Dear Mike,
    Lauren asked me for advice concerning your date and followup email. I can see why she was overwhelmed. You present yourself in a very unusual manner, and it is clear you need an explanation beyond what she can give. The feedback you requested is something most people know intuitively, so it is difficult to put into words. I believe it would be valuable for you to seek out a support group for adults with autism and to get a clinical evaluation to determine what kind of support would be most helpful to you. It is also best if you do not contact Lauren again.
    Sincerely,
    [Fake Person, sent from a temporary email address.]”

  • Michael P

    It happens all the time you think a date went great and you never hear from the woman again. It’s no big deal because the remedy is simple: parallel date until you are in a mutually exclusive relationship. The reality is that women are fungible – as interchangeable as one cup of sugar for another or one dollar bill for another. There are about 3 or 4 “stories” out there – they are divorced, in school, moved here from Montana and is a struggling actress, etc., you get the picture. And only a very rare woman truly enjoys adventure or excitement. When you ask a woman what her passions are they are dumbstruck and come up with things like “shopping,” “restaurants,” “shows,” “traveling.”

    So until you meet that hot, attractive, interesting and engaging woman who is likewise hot for you, a man should never invest too much emotional energy into any 1 particular woman. I just had a very similar situation – I actually did meet that hot, interesting woman and things went great after our first date I was going away the following weekend with friends and we kept in contact and set a second date up for the following week. We went out and she seemed a little short with me but I ignored it because it was a week night so maybe she was tired. I drove her to her car and she looked at me and said “this isn’t working out…” I truly was shocked, and when she continued “you’re a great guy…” I stopped her before “but,” and told her it really did not matter she did not have to explain herself. When she said she would love to hang out as friends I told her “as I am sure you know I am a real man so that’s not going to happen. Nor will I call you asking you to reconsider you’ll be deleted before you get home.” She was actually surprised that I told her I’d be deleting her contact info.

    The trick is simple – (1) early on don’t spend too much money on dates. If they like you it won’t matter and if all they want is an entertainment committee then you can ditch forthwith. (2) NEVER invest too much emotional energy into a woman until you are mutually exclusive. I’ll admit that with the one I just wrote about I was shocked and upset – but it lasted all of 10 minutes. As a matter of fact, I was hungry so I went to a sushi restaurant and the bartender was HOT. I told her I was alone because my “girlfriend” just broke up with me. I told her what happened in a comical way, we hit it off, and her and I are going on a second date. (3) and this is important to the guys out there – never just date 1 woman at a time, no matter how much you like her, to “see where it will go.” BIG MISTAKE. See, the reason why I was able to joke about it with the bartender was because as much as I had high hopes for the one that just called it quits, I was still seeing other people. Had I not been, I would have been mad/sad/angry/lonely/depressed/insecure/needy. I would have never been able to bounce back in 10 minutes and catch a rap with the bartender.

    Now I am sure that many of you ladies may think I am some sort of jerk or “player.” I am not a jerk and truly love and adore woman. If I am a player then it is because that is what you have to be in order to not come off to varying degrees of what the break-up e-mail writer did. As much as it sucks and is “unfair,” a woman has the right to unilaterally change her mind about a man after a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc., date. The man cannot control it it’s just the way it is. Likewise, parallel dating is an emotional survival skill, and is in direct response to the inherent flaky nature of the female population. In other words, if you don’t like to hear that there are men like me out there then change your ways. Give a guy a second chance when you are on the fence and he expresses interest. Make a date and actually follow through. Indeed, the flake factor is so high on a first date that I generally only make a first date when I have an event or party that I am going to alone that I can bring her to. This way if she blows me off, which is a 2/3 chance she will, my evening is not ruined.

  • cyanide

    I reallllllllly think I know this person… I was in a weird relationship for a while that involved email exchanges much like “Mike’s”. I won’t ask for names or anything, but do you know how tall “Mike” is? I’d really appreciate knowing, because I’m almost positive this is someone from my past…

  • bobat

    Sandie, so when a guy you think was amazing decides to ignore you you don’t get incredibly upset, maybe cry for days about it? Give me a break. It just shocks me how few people have the ability to feel any empathy. I assure you that every girl calling this guy a loser has also cried about being hurt in the same way this guy was hurt. If people stopped ignoring each other, they would stop getting hurt in this way… yet girls continute to see his actions as “creepy” yet when it happens to them they act like its the end of the world and why would so and so guy ignore “ME”? Its incredible how insensitive and self absorbed people are. They truly do not realize how evil their actions are until it happens to them, and even then, they forget a day later.
    No she is not bound to this guy, but it shows a complete and utter lack of respect for her fellow man that she would flat out ignore this guy. Again, I am willing to bet money that some guy has also ignored you and you have been devastated…so why is it horrible when it happens to you, yet this guy is a “creep” for freaking out about it? This girl is incredibly immature. Ignoring someone is an incredibly wimpy and disrespectful way to let someone down. The mature thing to do would have to been honest about why this guy isn’t good enough for her. Instead she chose to be a coward and treat this guy like a piece of shit. So is it any wonder that he is now addressing her like an immature child?
    And no i do not come off as a needy creeper on the first date. Quite frankly it seems like the older people get, the pickier they become and the less willing they are to give someone a chance who they don’t picture marrying ASAP. Every guy who has done this to me has eventually admitted that its purely due to a lack of spark, and they’re immature assholes for just falling off the face of the earth instead of respecting me enough to be my friend. I by no means hint at a relationship while meeting guys, i just want friendship, or act like I am their girlfriend. I don’t know what this guy did, but no human being deserves to beignored like that.

    Ambil, being polite also means you respond to your call or texts, because you have respect for the other person. To plain out ignore someone shows that you see this person as sub human and don’t think they deserve to be acknowledged. That is not even “politeness” its basic human decency. And I don’t care what your gold digging mother taught you, if you are not interested in a guy it is incredibly rude to let him pay for dinner. INSANELY rude. And this is coming from a girl. Men, like women, are not made of money. They don’t have some sort of money tree that only men get. And lets face it if women are this rude to men and ignore him after ONE date then a man is going to have to go on a TON of dates just in the hopes of finding a girl who will give him the time of day. That adds up to a ton of money. Your comment just reminds me of two guys I know who always refused to let me pay. 2 weeks into our relationship he revealed he was going broke, to which i responded “then why on earth do you keep insisting on paying for everything!!” The other one is someone who just moved to my state a year ago and didn’t have a job yet because he kept holding out for a “better” job. He was living off credit cards yet always insisted on paying. We weren’t even dating and he insisted on always paying. he is moving back home now because if he stays here any longer he is going to go bankrupt. All because of this “chivalry” bullshit.

    You might think it is “cruel” to tell someone you don’t like them, but the truth is that ignoring someone is far more cruel. It shows that you don’t think they are worthy of a response. that you don’t think they are a human being with feelings and with a mind to wonder what he did wrong. at least when you tell someone what went wrong, they don’t have to die wondering, and they might even CHANGE FOR THE BETTER. but living life wondering why people keep rejecting you is HORRIFYING. I am honest with people, and to be honest ive met some guys who are so ridiculously ugly that i really wondered how they DIDNT know why i wasn’t into them…but they’re so used to “polite” people that they truly don’t have a clue of their flaws. I have NEVER ignored a guy just because i didn’t like him. If he is so obnoxious and disgusting that i don’t want him in my life, i TELL him, and if he’s okay but just not my type, i stay friends, or at least ALWAYS answer his calls or text.

    Damsel, we do not know what this guy was like on the date. Plenty of creepy stalkery people come off perfectly normal on first dates. And even if he had acted creepy, he deserves to know that he was coming off that way. This girl isn’t doing anyone any favors by flat out ignoring this guy. She would be doing the world a HUGE favor if she told him “you came off as creepy because this that or the other.” Simply ignoring him is only going to encourage his creepiness.

    Getting blown off is a HORRIFYING feeling and it SHOULD NOT be part of dating. I get that if it happens to you you end up jaded and so even expect it and try to tell yourself its “normal” but it truly shouldn’t be normal, and i think if everyone does their part in ending this cowardly trend then we would all be a lot happier, dates would be a lot less stressful, and people wouldn’t be so angry and jaded. Just because something happens a lot in life doesn’t make it right. War happens…that doesn’t make it right. People stealing happens, its part of life, but it SHOULDN’T be, and blowing people off also shouldn’t be part of the human experience.

    william, its not just women who don’t have common courtesy these days, its men too, especially men who use online dating. for some reason i think people don’t treat the humans they meet on the internet with the same respect they treat people they meet in person. One guy who unaided me on Facebook after we met ONCE was honest enough to tell me that people don’t see “internet” people as real and thats why he thought it was okay to just ignore me with no explanation, as if i was disposable and had no feelings.

    “Regardless, no one owes an overly aggressive and clearly delusional person any reply. I”
    Because not replying is going to get them to stop? NO! Not replying sonly going to help them continue acting more aggressive and delusional AND then also add bitterness to the mix due to not knowing why they are constantly getting ignored. What is truly going to make a person stop acting like that is them being TOLD that they’re coming off as aggressive and delusional. Yes they might be angry when you tell them, but in the long run it will help them change. By ignoring them you instead create people like Micheal P, who after being seen as a disposable piece of shit so many times has gotten so bitter that he now treats women they way they treated him, as replaceable disposable objects that don’t have any feelings or are worthy of any respect. Just read his reply, its got ASSHOLE written all over it, and I assure you he wasn’t born this bitter and angry, something in life has made him that way, and i am pretty sure its being treated with such cowardly disrespect as this woman treated the man who wrote the email. Micheal P is probably beyond repair by now, but not everyone is. he may be past the point of treating women with respect, as he clearly states no woman is worth any effort, but not everyone is.But continue to just ignore people and i assure you we will be seeing a lot more Micheal Ps. Sadly there are already far too many of them. I point this out so you guys can all see the type of monster you create by not giving a human the respect he deserves- an explanation. This guy sees women as cheap objects and has so much hate for them that its a wonder why he even bothers continuing to date women instead of just turning gay. Although I have been hurt a lot like Micheal has, i continue to value every person i meet and i am always open and willing to invest my entire heart in people no matter what, because i am mature enough to know that while i have come across some terrible people in my life, no one deserves to be treated like shit. Micheal on the other hand is not so mature. the part that really really had me set on how fucked up and how much of a lost cause this guy is is the part where he told the woman she is not good enough to be his friend, only good enough to be a fuck toy…because lets face it, if she was really so “hot and interesting” you would want her in your life, whether she is your “girlfriend” or not. To dismiss her because she doesn’t want to be your girlfriend shows that you never had any respect for her in the first place and just saw her as a sex toy, and she is worthless to you in any other respect. It saddens me that people like Micheal P exist, and the more you guys keep thinking it is “polite” to ignore each other, the more Micheal Ps that will pop up in the world, people who have become sociopaths due to all the disrespect they have gotten in life and thus give back to the world exactly what they have gotten all their life– no respect and being treated like an object.i honestly hope no one takes his horrible cruel advice because all you’re going to be doing is creating more bitter angry people. And no woman with any ounce of self respect is ever going to let herself date a guy who wont stop dating other girls because he is holding out for something better. Sometimes you have to take a risk in life, and if you truly value other human beings, you wont see the whole “not dating other girls” thing as such a horrible thing. Yes not all dates work out, but treating people like disposable objects because of it is not only cruel, but it will scare off any girl who with any sense of decency. Not only that it will create the very girls you criticize, girls who only date guys for money and aren’t truly dedicated. do y ou think they were born this cruel? NO. its a result of dating guys like Micheal P who saw them as disposable and dint think they were worth any effort. You treat people like shit, and soon enough they will start seeing the world as full of shit heads. You give shit, you will get shit thrown back at you. Micheal P is going to die alone and miserable because he doesn’t realize that all he is doing is adding to the cycle of human hate instead of being proactive and ending it by being the change he wants to see in the world. Honestly Micheal P, if a girl took all your advice and did it to YOU, you would call her a heartless bitch, yet you think it’s okay for you to do it? Give me a break.
    Saying that “parallel” dating is an important survival mechanism is like saying that being an emotionless prick is also a survival mechanism because the moment you’re not a prick you are capable of being hurt. Yes it might help your pathetic sociopathic mind cope with rejection, but in the long run its just going to make you completely isolate yourself from society and end up ALONE. by that time you’ll be so numb to any kind of human emotion that you wont even care anymore. if that is what you want, fine, but i would urge you to stop hurting other human beings and just lock yourself in your cave already. we have all been hurt Micheal P. The mature thing to do is treat others as you would like to be treated, not treat them like the trash they treated you. its so ironic that you urge women to change THEIR ways yet decide its better for you to act just as immature and heartless as the women who have hurt you. Again, don’t you SEE that you are just creating a viscous cycle of pain? If you truly want women to treat you with respect, you need to treat THEM with respect. oh and stop going out with flakey women. if you truly are getting flaked that much then you clearly are not being very picky with your selection processs. i have been online dating for 7 years and never once have i been flaked on a date, and i can count the times i have had a date verbally canceled on me on one hand. one time it was even a guy “testing” to see how i would respond to his flakiness to “make sure i wasnt needy.” Needless to say this guy who treats women with such low respect is also going to end up alone. I do not tolerate people who break meetings with me, and any woman who would be okay with him flaking on him is a woman who has given up on life and has no respect for herself

  • Michael P

    Thank you so much Bobat for the kind words. Look baby, there is nothing “horrifying” about being blown off. Relax. I do not see woman as “disposable piece[s] of shit,” and have great respect for woman. I am not bitter, angry, or an asshole just realistic.

    Baby, there is the way it ought to be and then the way it is. I think that most women would be better off giving a guy that they are on the fence with more of a chance than what they do. But that is just not how women are wired.

    Women ARE worthy of effort, however, you can only put in your effort the rest is up to her. The simple fact of the matter is that when you don’t have total control you cannot take total responsibility. Look, say if my goal is to lose weight. That is totally up to me so my success or failure is all my responsibility. But say my goal is to get a great job. I do everything right – study hard, get excellent grades, etc., but when I graduate there are simply no jobs. Well, I cannot consider myself a failure because reaching my goal was not totally up to me but contingent on forces beyond my control. It’s the same with women. You can do everything right and the outcome is never in your total control.

    The way women are in breaking off a relationship early on by just ignoring the man does not “create a monster.” Really you have just got to calm down. Is it rude, yes. But from the women’s point of view it is just easier. As I have become a creature of experience so have women, and they know that the vast majority of the times when they give the ‘we’re not compatible’ explaination most men will just keep on calling and trying to rationalize or ask for another chance. There are very few men like me out there that will just say ‘fair enough, bye’ and then hit the delete button. So while it’s rude, yes indeed, the woman has every right to break it off that way. Likewise, I have every right to parallel date and not foreclose any other opportunities unless and until we are in a mutually exclusive relationship. This does not mean that I do not “value” the person I meet – I do. But I also know the fickle, hair trigger reaction of women when you first start dating.

    You say I am not mature but I assure you this is a very mature and responsible way of looking at things. It is more mature than continuing to harass a woman after she politely tells you that you are not for her or just ignores your calls and e-mails.

    And that thing about not being a “friend” but being a “fuck toy,” you are way off base with that one. We went on 2 DATES. We did not go out as “friends.” Indeed, she even knew that, because she rejected me due to my body size. She was also looking for a relationship, and inherent in that relationship is sex. Now, there is a couple of things different with woman and men as it comes to sex. One, I would still be sexually attracted to her so it would be exceedingly frustrating for me, and two, every time I went out with her as a “friend” I would be foreclosing an opportunity to meet someone that there would be relationship potential with. The last thing a man wants in his life is a “hot and interesting” woman that is not your “girlfriend” or at least a FWB. I mean, get real sister. Only an absolutely loser of a man would do that after a woman that he felt chemistry with rejects him. And you say “to dismiss her because she doesn’t want to be your girlfriend shows that you never had any respect for her in the first place…” however it was HER that dismissed ME. While I disagree with her rational, she had every right to do that, just as I had every right to tell her that I was not going to continue on as her “friend.” So from 1 perspective you are right – once she decided we were not going to be a couple she was worthless to me – because I am not looking for a “friend” but a “girlfriend.”

    Babat, you rant and rave but the bottom line is that a woman has the right to break it off, in any fashion, in the first few dates. Or later down the road. Likewise, until I am committed with a woman I have the right to see others, as she does as well. I would in no way think a woman is a “heartless bitch” for taking my advice and think she’d be smart. As much as I start up with a woman and she calls it off, I have called it off after a few dates as well.

    In dating, you are making an investment of time and emotions. What is the basic rule in investing – NEVER put all your eggs in 1 basket. When you do that you are doomed for failure. There is nothing wrong with dating others until you are in a mutually exclusive relationship. There is nothing wrong with a chick ditching you early on, or later on, or you ditching her, and there is nothing wrong with not letting yourself be put in the “friend zone.”

  • tammie2412

    @MichaelP are you for real??

  • Michael P

    100% why do you ask?

  • Michael P

    Any woman that disagrees with anything I have said clearly wants it both ways – they want to be in total control, pass judgment, and want a man around to “vior dire,” or “pick and choose,” at their disposal. During which time, the man is a “player” or “womanizer” if he does the same or keeps his options open. Any woman that disagrees with anything I say wants to do all the judging but does not want to be judged and earn the relationship herself. I say screw that do all the judging you want you are entitled – but so am I. And until WE have come to a mutually exclusive relationship all I owe you is my respect and affection when we are together – and that is all you owe me.

  • tammie2412

    @MichaelP I’m just floored by your attitude, “If things don’t work out & I don’t get to f**k you then I don’t want to be your friend!” I’m sure you’re missing out on some great friends, although it sounds like they aren’t LOL. A couple of my dearest friends are my exes. And yes, I do have friends that are ex “dates” that didn’t work out. Sometimes on my part, sometimes on theirs.

  • tammie2412

    @MichaelP That’s not true at all. You’re generalizing women as if we are all the same. That’s like saying all men are sluts (which isn’t true). I think either both parties should be exclusive or both should date other people. It shouldn’t really be an either or thing.

  • Michael P

    Tammie, you are focusing on the sex part of it while I am focusing on the relationship part of it. Sex is inherent in a relationship. It’s not if you don’t fuck me I don’t want to be your friend. It’s that if you do not want to be MY girlfriend and mutually exclusive then I do not want to be YOUR friend. See, you are obviously one of these entitled types of woman who feel that it is okay to have a man wrapped around your finger to do with what you want – date / fuck / not fuck / make into a relationship / make into a friend, etc., and the guy just must go along with whatever kind of relationship YOU want. If it works for some dude to be your platonic friend after he was hot for you and you were not that’s fine for him. But for me I date as a mechanism to get out of the single scene. I do want a woman as my friend – my best friend. As a girlfriend or wife, NOT as a platonic friend to have lunch, go to the mall, and here about all the other men you are dating. Again, a woman jettisons me at any time and in any fashion, fine. Just don’t expect me to stick around for your emotional needs if there is nothing in it for me.

  • tammie2412

    You do make some good points. I guess since I am married (& many of my male friends are, too), I look at it a bit differently. As for being “entitled” hmmm – well, I have two things to say: 1. You should learn to discuss issues without name calling & 2. If I am “on of those entitled types of women who feel its ok to have men wrapped around my finger”. If any men are wrapped around my finger, it’s because they want to be & they are obviously getting some payoff, or they would t be around. I appreciate everyone in my life, male or female, & make it a point to treat them as such! Having someone wrapped around your finger implies that you take advantage of or manipulate them. That could not be further from the truth. Unless you count being thoughtful & doing nice things for the people I care about.

  • Michael P

    Tammy, if men are wrapped around your finger they allow it so it’s their bad not yours I would give you that. So many men are such wussy boys that they will hang on for any reason. Having someone wrapped around your finger implies that they are allowing it and has more to do with the infirmaries in their personality.

  • teensiesama

    dang!
    Does anyone know how to be ‘removed’ from the notifications of new comments? I am getting dizzy just looking at all the stuff…
    @_@

  • bobat

    Look “baby”? Seriously are you TRYING to come off as a douchebag?
    Actually it is how women are wired, but no woman is ever on the fence regarding a douchebag who “parallel dates” and calls women “baby”. Any woman who says she is is simply being “politem”. If I am on the fence about someone I stay in his life and becomes his friend. I never ever ever blow him off because I treat others as I would like to be treated. If you blow off girls because they want to be your friend instead of jumping into bed with you then its no wonder women blow you off, no woman with any ounce of self respect will tolerate that bs. And yes being friends with someone is in fact giving them a chance. I’m not sure where some people got the idea that being “friend zoned” is the worst thing in the world but look at any successful relationship and they more than likely started out as friends. Couples who go straight to being lovers sizzle out fast.

    You’re right the outcome is never in your control but that’s no reason to treat women like shit.

    And what men are these women dating that keep beging for another chance? If I don’t like a guy he knows right away and will not call me or ask me to give him a chance. Even when I do like a guy he for the most part doesn’t pursue me. Its always upto me tpo pursue him. Its rare that a guy will fight for me. Hell a friend of mine has been smitten by me for a year yet will never call me up to hang out. If women are being bombarded by men desperate to date them then they must be dating wayyyy below their league because the only men who are ever even the slight bit persistant with me (and by persistant I mean guys who say “hey we should hang out” and I say “okay give me a time and day” and then never have the courage to set up a specific day) are reallly ugly and pathetic guys. And even thenthey byno means are like the men you seem to claim women deal with who beg and plead for their acceptance. Maybe its a location thing since I live in los angeles, but I haven’t had a guy actively chase me since I was 20 unless you count my ex who didn’t have to do much chasing because I was into him right away. And even him had I said “not interested” he would not have persisted. Gosh even the guy I dated just recently who would call me every day to hang out is not the type to push a girl who isn’t into him. The only guys who are even the slight bit persistant in the way you say is so common when guys are rejected are delusional guys on dating sites who I never meet. They have never met me before yet insist I’m their soulmate and that they’re a “nice guy” and this thus gives them the right to date a girl far prettier than them. Now THAT is insane, for a guy you havnt even met to be persistant. He doesn’t even know me! And these are still a minority! I don’t know what kind of crowd you hang around with that you think men who aren’t persistant are a minority. In my world they are a large majority. I WISH men would ask for another chance. Or even try to court or impress me at least a tiny bit. Its been a long time since I’ve felt that a guy genuinly wanted to put any effort in chasing me. And no its not because I’m old or ugly. I’m 25 and work in an industry based on looks.

    You date fickle women, that is your problem. Not all women are fickle. most women I know are not.
    As for the friend vs date thing- listen to yourself! What was so horrible about this woman that you thought she was solely suitable as a fuck toy and not as a genuine friend? So what if your first two meetings were “dates” I won’t even get into how unhealthy it is to date someone you just met without the basis of a friendship there, it doesn’t mean she doesn’t deserve to be treated like a human being. Asking for your friendship is a way to slow things down and potentially form a long lasting and successful relationship rather than what rushing into dating leads to- a short lived fling. I mean do you honestly believe that you can know a person well enough after 2 minutes to determine that you want a date with them? Why were you even dating her to begin with if you didn’t even know her yet? That’s a hell of a lot a pressure to put on someone. And if you are getting rejected for being fat you have one of two options
    1 lose weight
    2 go after fat women. Its insane when fat men think they can court skinny women yet refuse to date their own kind.
    And yes she is looking for a relationship, most people are, but the best relationships have a basis in a strong friendship. If there is no friendship, there is nofoundation and the building is bound to fall quickly.
    And what type of bulsshit is that? You can’t be friends with a woman because it wouhld be “frustrating”? Give me a fucking break. You clearly have 0 respect for women if its “frustrating” to be around them and not fuck them. And then “hanging out with her would ruin any potential relationships”?? Wtf. Because you’re such a heartthrob that women hit on constantly when you’re alone or with other guys right?
    And stop with the lies. If you truly felt chemistry with this girl you would want her in your life because shed be too precious to lose. This is one of the reasons I never dated the guy who was into me for a year, because as much as he denied it he was far too sex driven and didn’t truly value women. He gave me the same rant about how “frustrating” it was to hang out only as friends. Yes It might hurt a little to not have your crush requited but if you truly care for a person you will be thrilled to have them in your life, dating or not. Its incredibly offensive when someone I care about won’t evenbe my friend and incredibly painful. All that tells me is they don’t have the slightest bit of respect for me.

    And no I do not “want it both ways”. I want at least half of the devotion and dedication I put into men I date. I never get even a quarter of it and if I do its short lived. But just because I don’t get it doesn’t mean I become bitter and jaded like you micheal p and decide that people are disposible and thus “parallel date.” I continue to treat peopl with love and respect and hope to one day be loved even half as much as I love. That would be more than enough for me.

    And no tammie he doesn’t make a good point. By saying that he wants a gf and not a friend he is putting the title of gf below the title of a friend. In his world it is easier for someone to be a gf than a friend. That should never be the case. It should always be a lot easier to be a friend. The fact that he can so easily eliminate girls he dates from his life shows he never had any kind of respect for them in the first place. If he really did like these girls he’d be dying to at least stay friends with them.

  • tammie2412

    @bobat -Of course he doesn’t make a good point but I didn’t really want to fight/talk with him anymore. It was pointless. Nothing I said was going to get through to him. He’s young, immature & close minded. He has no respect for women & nothing I said was going to change his mind. I couldn’t agree with you more. My husband & I were friends before we dated. We will be married 25 (happy) years in May. And, yes, he would say “happy” too LOL.

  • tammie2412

    @Teensiesama – just under the comment box there is a link (in fuchsia pink) that says: “Manage your subscriptions” – my money would be on that.

  • Michael P

    Bobat, I am 48. There is nothing in it for a man being “friend zoned” with a woman you are attracted to. The woman do not have a clue that I am parallel dating what do you think, I tell them? It is not cheating because you are not committed yet, when I am then I do not date others. If I am on a “date” with a woman and she does not “feel it” to make me a boyfriend that is her right but it is my right to not continue to see her as a “friend” if I do not want to – if it is “immature” to refuse to be a “friend” then it would be likewise immature for a woman to not want to continue on with a man romantically if the man does. Now, that makes no sense – likewise it makes no sense to say a man is an asshole to not be a “friend” with a woman who rejects him. It is not treating a woman like shit when she rejects you to thank her for the opportunity and delete her contacts. Indeed, about half the time it is me that does not want to continue on does that mean she is treating me like shit when she decides she does not want to be my friend? I don’t think so. The gal that I was seeing and cut it off after the second date rejected ME. I did not reject HER. She rejected me because I am a big guy (not fat, big I lift weights and box), but she likes lean men. She loved my personality and we got along great and she tried to overlook it but she just could not. Now, I think it is pretty superficial but who am I to judge. She suggested that we remain “friends” but I would just be frustrated knowing that I was rejected by this otherwise great woman. So I told her “no thanks.” She had every right to reject me for ANY reason, why do I have any less right to consequently reject her? What gives her the right to unilaterally dictate the nature of our relationship? So Bobat, why would I be “dying” to stay friends with a woman that rejected me. It’s stupid. And I’ll find one that does not reject me – I always do. It’s amazing how judgmental you are about my reasons for not wanting to be a woman’s friend, as if she has some sense of entitlement. Really why do I have to spend time with someone that I no longer care for since she rejected me? What’s in it for me? I have kids, a business, male friends, family, etc. why do I have to be this chick’s “friend” after she rejects me – I have friends that accept me for who I am. I owed her nothing and that is what she got from me. If she wanted me around, she would have not raised the issue. Nonetheless, I have more respect for her than I do for you, because at least she tried. You on the other hand are a self entitled lunatic that thinks the world revolves around you – and if figures since you live in LA and work in a plastic industry. Get a grip on reality you, or any other broad rejects me – fine, but don’t think for a minute that there is not other pu$$y out there – there is.

  • Zariel

    Jesus wept, there’s some real idiots posting here.

    These walls of text from people defending this man just remind me of his wall of text. What good does it do you to be so obsessive and finicky?

    For all we know this woman could have simply been too busy to respond to Mike – something serious may have happened, we don’t know – and he’s done what so many silly women do. Over-analyse and obsess. You’ve not heard the date’s side of the story, and yet you whine and rant and judge. Taking something out on her, are we?

    I’ve not bothered to read most of the never-ending story that you lot have typed, I read through about half of it and realised it was going nowhere interesting. I caught bobat’s little remark about crying for days – you’re honestly telling me you’d cry for days over a man you went on one date with, have no history or connection with and who obviously isn’t right for you? This race is truly doomed if people cry for days over something like that.

    All the time these sort of people waste obsessing over trivial crap is just ridiculous. That’s time you could be spending doing something constructive, finding someone more suitable for you and getting on with your life. Finding a partner shouldn’t define you anyway, as you get on with your day-to-day you will normally meet someone naturally without killing yourself over it. Desperation, clinginess and all those other things I’ve mentioned are unattractive and bad for your health.

    When you’re a teen inexperienced in the ways of the world and the meaning of love, it’s normal to go through a mild trial and error process of being rubbish at dating and going for people who aren’t right for you, thinking it’s love and forever. But you ought to learn how things work pretty quickly. Sadly, a lot of people don’t seem to learn. Boo-hoo, get off the internet and stop devoting large walls of poorly structured text to strangers.